Mor:
Hello, everyone. Let’s just wait a few moments for everyone to trickle in and then we’ll get started.
Okay, so I see people are joining. We’re going to go ahead and get started as people join us. So welcome, everyone, to Steakholder meets the biweekly Twitter based show that’s brought to you by Steakholder Foods. My name is Mor Glotter Nov, and I’m your host. Today we have a really special episode for you. We’re hosting a fireside chat with Upside Foods. And our special guest today is David Kay, the director of communications at Upside Foods. And together we’re going to discuss the US. Cultivated meat market, its building blocks for commercialization and consumer acceptance. So if you’re curious about this market, this is the space for you. If you’re joining us live, drop your questions as comments on our Q and A tweet just like you always do, and we’ll leave some time at the end for Q and A at the end of the show. So, David, welcome. I’m really happy to have you on this conversation and talk to you about cultivated meat in the US. Especially that Upside Food is an industry leader here.
So first things first. Let’s start with a quick intro. Can you tell me a few words about yourself, how you got into tech food, tech in general, Upside Food specifically, and anything else you want the audience to know about you and Upside Foods?
David:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you, Mor, for setting this up. Really excited to be here and excited for the work Steakholder Foods is doing and, of course, the broader cultivated meat industry. So, as you said, I’m the director of communications and the first employee at Upside Foods. So for those who don’t know Upside, we are a Berkeley based cultivated meat, poultry, and seafood company, and we are developing a way to produce real meat without the need to raise and slaughter billions of animals. So we were the first ever cultivated meat company founded in the world. This dates back to late 2015. About seven years later, we have built a team of over 200 people. We became the first company in the world to get the FDA green light for cultivated meat last November. And at this point, we are in a process of developing the systems needed to scale cultivated meat effectively and then, of course, also waiting on the remaining regulatory review processes to complete. In particular, we’ll need the USDA green light to start selling at a small scale in the US. So that’s a bit about Upside and sort of the trajectory we’ve been on. I think in terms of my story and how I got here, I think it echoes a lot of the core company values. So I first heard about Upside seven years ago when it was called Memphis Meats. I was studying political science at Stanford University and I had just learned about some of the negative impacts of the meat production industry on the planet, on the environment, on animal welfare and public health and broadly also just the need to supplement our existing methods of meat production with new methods that can help us meet Skyrocketing global demand. So listeners may know demand for meat from 2005 to 2050 is expected to roughly double. Meat production today currently uses about a third of the world’s arable land and fresh water. And so there’s simply not enough space on the planet and not enough resources on the planet to double all of those natural resource inputs to meet this doubling of demand. And so we are really out to create new methods of meat production. And this is something that I was learning about when I heard about methods meat. This was through sort of the nonprofit Grapevine I was a part of at that time. And so I reached out to Uma Valletti, who’s our CEO and founder, he’s a cardiologist trained at the Mayo Clinic who left the world of cardiology to start this company. Seemed like a good fit. So they brought me on. And at that time it was just a completely different world. There were, as I said, no other employees at Upside Foods aside from the founders, but also no other companies in the cultivated meat industry. So it felt quite risky at the time and there were a lot of skeptics in the world. And I think the difference between where we are seven years later is night and day difference. And just in terms of the ecosystem that has been established around this industry, the academic programs, the acknowledgment from governments all across the world. And so it’s just been an incredible rocket ship ride to be an upside and to be with the cultivated meat industry in this period of really tremendous growth. So that’s a bit about me, but I’d love to hear more about you Mor. Same question to you. What inspired you to join the industry? What are you most excited about for the potential of cultivated meat?
Mor:
Yeah, thanks. I completely get your point on how the industry has changed and everything that is in comparison to seven years ago and today it’s a whole new world and yeah, so I completely agree. And on my end, I think I also joined when I was looking around and tried to understand what’s going to happen with the world and how can I help? And so I was looking into food tech specifically and found Steakholder Foods. And I really loved what Steakholder Foods was doing. And it wasn’t too long ago, it was about six months ago when I actually joined Food Tech. And so I got into this ecosystem when it was completely bursting and bubbling and everyone was actually talking about it. So it was an exciting time to join. And with Steakholder Foods, I got really excited because we’re working on the food of the future. We are developing industrial solutions to mimic the best of nature so you could think about it as printing steaks from cells and that got me super excited. We’re also, of course, committed to everything that stems from that. So to strengthen food security, decrease the footprints, conserve water, land resources and all of that. But what really makes Steakholder Foods special is that we took the Bus mines from biology and engineering. We put them together and we created really a one of a kind 3d printer that can not only print the cells that we grow in house, but actually can work with anyone in the industry printing cells in a very complex matrix that allows us to create sophisticated, whole cuts of meat, getting closer and closer to what nature actually does. So that’s about Steakholder. That’s what got me excited about our company and that’s where I am today. So I think this was a good intro on both ends. And if you’re good to go, I think I can start with a few questions for you.
David:
Yeah, let’s do it.
Mor:
So, as a first employee at Upside Foods, what inspired you to pursue a career? Well, actually, I think you kind of answer this, but I would say what do you see as the biggest potential benefits of the technology that you’re using?
David:
Yeah, I mean, for me, initially the draw was on the animal welfare side. And I actually spent some time when I was at Stanford trying to persuade people to adopt more sustainable eating habits. But pretty quickly I realized that that was just not an impactful or effective way to achieve the sort of impact that I was hoping to have. And that if there could just be new methods of meat production so that the product is essentially the same, it’s just the process that’s different, that would be a much faster way to impact. And so I think when we think about the animal welfare piece, we’re talking about once at full scale, which will take some time, potentially billions of animals saved each year. And so there’s a tremendous amount of really transformative impact there. On the environmental side as well, I think our goal is at full scale to be producing products that provide really substantial benefits in terms of reduced greenhouse gas emissions and lower land and water inputs required. And then I think the third one in more of the public health category that frankly doesn’t get talked about enough, in my opinion, is antibiotic use. Today antibiotics are used quite generously in the meat industry and it’s creating this risk of a world where bacteria evolves to essentially become resistant to antibiotics. So you can imagine a world, it’s not fun, but you can imagine a world where antibiotics no longer work, or at least some of them no longer work. And a world like that is quite scary from a bacterial pandemic risk. And so I think we are at scale not expecting to use any antibiotics in our production process. And so that I think is one of the most compelling but not really talked about enough benefits of cultivated meat.
Mor:
I completely agree. I think I was at a conference in Berlin just recently, and I heard the CEO of GFI Good Food Institute talk about this issue. And he was adding to this that there’s also the risk with flu that can translate from animals to people and adding that with antibiotics actually made GFI say that the number one risk today is actually not carbon footprint. It’s even riskier on the health side. So I get your point. That’s truly something that we’re all working on and at scale will have a tremendous effect on the way we live and how we reduce that risk. So, yeah, thanks.
And so I think we’re all talking about what this industry can do and how amazing it is and can really change the way we consume food, the way the Earth and the planet keeps moving. But there are a lot of challenges that the food industry today is facing and food tech is facing and cultivated meat is facing. And so how does cultivated meat fit into the larger picture just of creating a more sustainable food system in general overall? Is it only on the health side or anything else?
David:
No, I think it has to be all of the above. So, I mean, first off, to the question of how we think of cultivated meat existing in the broader food system, I think it’s going to be a tool in the toolkit. And that is to say, with demand for meat skyrocketing so unbelievably quickly, there’s going to need to be multiple methods of meat production, and cultivated meat is going to be one of them, but it’s certainly not going to be the only one. And I think there’s room for a lot of different solutions to meeting consumers demand for meat and for protein as well. I think one of the really interesting things that we’re going to see and that we already are seeing in the cultivated meat industry is what we call an upside. This phase shift from an industry and a set of companies that are really focused on research and development at a somewhat early stage to companies where research and development will still be a huge component, but they are also becoming commercial companies. We are growing up into companies that are going to be eventually actually selling to consumers and creating hopefully beloved products that consumers love across the range of meat products out there. And I think there’s a lot of learnings that go with that. I mean, we’ve been embarking on this journey at Upside Foods for a while. We brought on our first COO who came from PepsiCo a couple of years ago. We completed construction on our first production facility. We are sort of in the middle of the regulatory process. We’ve gotten the green light from FDA. We’re waiting on a corresponding green light from USDA before we can start selling. And so we’re sort of in the middle of that transition and I think most of the other companies in this space are going to soon find themselves if they’re not already in a similar spot. And the sort of priorities and stakeholders and the way the business is run will just change. I think the priorities in early stage research and development, company and industry is going to be much more focused on let’s try everything, see what works, understanding that for various reasons, not everything is going to make it to the consumer’s plate. It’s just a chance to sort of dream big and brainstorm on a white piece of paper and then we funnel that down into products that we feel really good about serving to consumers, that we think consumers will feel really good about purchasing, that we think the world could really use. And so I think that’s one of the things that you’ll start to see. I think the sort of subsets of that will be greater focus on scale, greater focus on brand building and communications, which is of course in your wheelhouse more and also probably some consolidation in the industry, especially in this economic climate. But I think these are all sort of natural parts of an industry that is so reliant on that research and development phase and that is so capital intensive. And I think these are signs that the industry is maturing as you would expect it to and as we have sort of expected it to from day one.
Mor:
Yeah, that makes sense to me as well. Just like any new technology, it has a way to go through. I agree with you that this is the stage where consolidation, brand and all of the above that you mentioned is going to happen. So I agree with you.
I think in the next five years the industry and the industry are going to be really crucial because people are going to start getting introduced to cultivated meat products. So far they’ve only been introduced to plant based versions and so they’re going to see cultivated meat products first at restaurants than at supermarkets. And so how do you see the US cultivated meat market evolving over the next five to ten years? What are the challenges do you think we’ll need to overcome to get a widespread adoption?
David:
Yeah, I think it’s such a great question. First, I should say with respect to plant based, I love the plant based protein industry and if you scroll through my Twitter feed, you’ll see it’s mostly pictures of different sorts of plant based meat products that I get to try in various areas. That’s fun and take a photo of. I think that is an industry that’s done a tremendous amount of good and will continue to do so. I also think there’s an incredibly important need to differentiate between plant based products and cultivated meat products because I think ultimately at the end of the day they are going to serve different consumers. Not to say there won’t be any overlap, but I think one of the sort of value propositions for us from day one has been this is not a vegan or vegetarian meat alternative. This is a real meat product. And that’s something that we take incredible amount of pride in, but also that we want to make sure consumers understand very clearly, because we want consumers to know exactly what it is they’re purchasing. And I think that will be a challenge that we’ve already seen. I think there’s a lot of confusion out there about the difference between these two categories and I think the industry needs to do a better job and all of these sort of public commentators on the industry need to do a better job of making that differentiation clear. But also I think it’s going to continue to be a challenge. A lot of companies, including Upside. We have a whole range of products in our product portfolio ranging from products that are essentially 100% meat to products that have some amount of plant based materials mixed in. And both are going to be absolutely critical parts of our product portfolio. And so that is going to just make that sort of communication more and more important over time. And I think other companies would probably tell you something similar, at least in terms of a number of companies are starting with these blended products that include some plant based materials. And so I think that’s just something that the industry needs to get really good at is describing the product in a way that is positive and makes it clear what we are, but also makes it clear what we are not and how we are different than the plant based to meet alternatives out there.
Mor:
Yeah, it’s going to be the stage of the communications and marketers to do their work and make sure that everything we want to say is being said correctly and in the best way to help consumer acceptance. But I think we’re seeing a drop in alternative protein products that are currently in the market. There was a lot of hype and excitement but just like you, I think these products are great not only because what they offer, but mainly because it’s the first generation of products that get consumers on board. They start thinking about changing the way. Maybe not everyone gets on board with these products, but it’s definitely the first step or, I don’t know, the first wave, the first generation of products. And so they’re soon going to be introduced to the second stage of products, the second wave, gen two, if you will, that will get even closer to real meat. And then as you said, after they get the blended products or hybrid products, they’ll get into the real meat. And it will be interesting to see how consumers accept and experience cultivated meat products after they experience plant based products. I think it’s interesting also to see how we will be able to communicate this with a lot of lobbyists trying to get no go on calling cultivated meat actually meat. So it’s going to be an interesting period and period of time to get consumers on board and see how consumers actually accept this.
David:
Absolutely. And I’m curious Mor, do you have any thoughts on learnings that our industry can take from the plant based sector?
Mor:
Yeah, I think it was interesting to me to see how they first started in restaurants so that the taste and the experience would be the full experience they want consumers to get, because plant based version alternatives have it’s tougher to cook it and get the full experience. So I think just keeping that mindset of making sure consumers get the full experience, understand what they’re eating or enjoy actually what they’re eating, is something that I definitely keep in mind. And so I think that’s something that was big on my end. I think also seeing collaboration within the industry, being a new industry, kind of new. We’ve been around for seven years, our company has been around for three, but still it’s pretty new. I think working together on some aspects will be important and so that’s something also I think we should be looking out for.
David:
Yeah, no, I mean, I totally agree and I think it’s a great point. At upside, we have always seen a part of our obligation as to help build out that broader industry ecosystem. So I think one of the best examples of this is we co founded Amps Innovation, that is the alliance or the association, sorry, for Meat, Poultry and Seafood Innovation, which is the world’s first trade association for the cultivated meat industry. And since then we’ve seen some others cropping up in other geographic regions in Europe and Asia and elsewhere, which has been really exciting. But the whole purpose of that was to say, look, yes, we are competitors, but we are also incredibly driven by the mission impact that we want these products in this industry to have and is there a way that we can collaborate on issues that impact the entire industry. And so Amps Innovation has been largely focused on the regulatory system in the US. Although we recently went through a sort of professionalization stage, I’m now on the board of directors and we hired an executive director and we are going to be expanding scope a little bit, which is super exciting. But I think generally I found that the different players in the cultivated meat industry are truly uniquely mission driven. I think every industry probably says that and for some it’s true and for some it’s not. But I think the cultivated meat space I’m just astounded when I hear about the passion that everybody is bringing to their day jobs, which I think is one of the things that makes it such an interesting space to work in. Outside of that, we at Upside have worked hard to support academic institutions that are doing open access research. So, for instance, we advocated to some state legislators in California for a $5 million budget allocation that ultimately passed the budget was signed into law and is now supporting alternative protein research and development at the UC schools, the University of California schools. So I think there’s a lot of really exciting work that can happen via these academic programs. We’re involved in the one at UC Davis and there’s one at Tufts as well. We’re incredibly supportive of these. And I think it’s going to take that full ecosystem of academic, of public sector of private sector of NGOs to really get the impact that we want to see in the world. And so these sorts of collaborations are absolutely crucial.
Mor:
Yeah, I’m completely with you on this. Before I joined Food Tech, I was working in Web Three and Blockchain, and that’s all about open source and working together. But I wasn’t used to that, just working in normal companies, all this collaboration. And when I joined Food Tech, I was really astonished by how companies are working together and really understanding that sometimes you’re competitors, but sometimes you also have to work together to make sure that what you want for consumers and for this industry to happen. You get that through working with the other companies in the space. I’m with you on this for sure.
Okay, so let’s go back to talking a little bit more about consumers and acceptance. I think there is definitely a perception about cultivated products. And a lot of people, when they hear lab grown meat as consumers, they have some reactions, they might have some thoughts about this just by the term lab grown or cell based or cultivated. So what does Upside Foods think about this? How are you working to address any concerns from the public? What do you do about this?
David:
Yeah, I’ll start on the narrow question of nomenclature and then sort of broader question about consumer enthusiasm and perception of the category. So I think at Upside, we prefer cultivated meat. We feel that is a term that is descriptive and accurate, but also differentiating, which is really crucial. It makes it clear that we are real meat, but also makes it clear that we’re not plant based and that we’re produced in a way that’s different than conventional meat production. I think lab grown is a term that is plainly just inaccurate. There are a whole variety of consumer food products that pass through a lab during a research and development phase, but they’re not referred to as lab grown because they’re ultimately produced in a factory or a brewery or something like that. So you think of many meat products today or you think of cereals or beers. All of these have a starting place in the Lab during research and development, but nobody is saying they’re buying lab grown beer because the products that they’re buying are made in beer breweries, and that’s similar to us. We use Labs in our R&D phase, but the products consumers will be buying are going to be produced in production facilities similar to the one that we finished completion on a couple of years ago. And so, more than anything, we stand for accurate and descriptive and truthful communication. That is our number one priority. And I think Labgrown doesn’t pass that test, but we think cultivated does. I think more broadly speaking, we’re pretty bullish on the way consumers will receive these products for a few reasons. One is that there have just been a number of publicly done academic survey out there that have shown that anywhere from a half to two thirds of American consumers would eat cultivated meat today, which is incredible. That is an early adopter segment that most industries in the world would kill for. But second, what we find is that the more consumers become familiar with cultivated meat, the more excited they get. And so what does that mean for us? That means a huge part of our job from a marketing and brand and communications perspective is to get these conversations started, to put ourselves out there, to make sure consumers know what we’re doing and why we’re doing it and how we’re doing it, to clear up any misinformation or inaccuracies and ultimately to let the consumer decide. And I have faith that if the consumers are armed with the facts and they have the knowledge they need to make an informed decision, they will make the decision that makes the most sense for them. And we think that there will be an incredibly massive opportunity from a consumer and business perspective for the industry. So we’re excited about it. And I think our number one priority is just on education, getting it out there. Most recently, we released with the FDA green light that we got in November, we released a document that was over 100 pages just going in depth into our production process. And it was truly unprecedented for the cultivated meat industry to release this much data on how we make our products. But the reason we wanted to do that in part was because we wanted to make sure consumers had that sense of understanding. And so we feel really good about that. There’s certainly lots of work to be done to make sure that we continue that education and scale that education as the products gradually become available to consumers and then to more and more consumers. But we think we’re in a good place on that front. But I’d be curious more what your take is on this and if there are any in particular common misconceptions about cultivated meat or if there’s anything we as an industry can be doing to better educate the public about this new technology.
Mor:
Yeah, I think we’re very much aligned with you on the term cultivated meat this is the term that we also use in any communication that we do. And I think it’s important, one, that we stick to the terms that we choose, but also that as an industry, we find the right terms so that the consumer isn’t bombarded with a lot of terms and doesn’t understand what’s going on. So I agree with you on that and I think we’re aligned. I also think there is a misconception when it comes to cultivated meat, where maybe it’s not a misconception, but it’s just consumers still don’t really get or understand the difference between what we do and the plant based versions. I guess it’s just because maybe it hasn’t been in the market available yet or it hasn’t been in the media for a while, for enough time. So a lot of questions that we get when we talk about cultivated meat is people ask what is it made from? Or they don’t really understand that it’s based on cells. So that’s something that we will keep pushing in our communication. And I think I agree with you on making sure that we are as transparent as we can, so that consumers really understand what we do, how it is made, what we aim for and completely make the right choice at the end of the day, because the choice at the end of the day will be an easy one. At least that’s what I think.
And you’ve mentioned your famous no questions letter that you got. Can you maybe share a bit about the excitement behind the scenes in the company and maybe elaborate on the time estimation and challenges to finish the product, the process you mentioned the USDA.
David:
Yeah, it’s a great question. The FDA green light in the form of the no questions letter that we got from the agency is something that the entire industry has been working towards since our inception in 2015. And I think Upside has really been leading the charge in terms of engaging early and often with the regulatory agencies, but also with other policy stakeholders in the food and AG space, whether that’s the North American Meat Institute or the other members of the cultivated meat industry via Amps innovation, which we talked about earlier. And so there was just so much work that went into this and it really touched every single member of our team in some way. Everybody was involved in some way, some more than others, in getting us across the finish line there and giving the FDA the information that they needed to make a really rigorous review process and to really vet our production processes and make sure that they didn’t have any questions and they could accept our safety conclusion about our cultivated chicken product. And so after all of that work, and this was in an atmosphere where there was a lot of public speculation just in the media that when is this coming? Is it going to hit soon? But we. Truly didn’t know. The agencies have their own timelines that they need to work on, and so when we found out about it, it was just one of the most exciting moments in the seven years that I’ve been at Upside Foods and the seven years that Upside Foods has existed. So much excitement, so much celebration. We were so excited to get the news out into the world and really pleased with sort of how the public took the information. It was, by any objective measure, the largest story in the history of the cultivated meat industry, which was incredibly exciting to be a part of and to have really helped pave the way, I think, for other companies going through this process. To your other question on timelines for the remaining steps. So, as you said, we’ll need USDA approval before we can actually start commercial production and sales in the US. I don’t want to speculate on that. At the end of the day, it truly is up to the agency, so we are hoping it will be this year and cautiously optimistic about that. But at the end of the day, we don’t really have much insight into that, and it’s going to just depend on how quickly the USDA moves.
Mor:
Yeah, it was really something that the whole industry was waiting for, and it was really exciting, even for us that you received that FDA green light. So it was really special. I think at the same day that you received the green light, we just had our first tasting event in the US. So our whole team was there and they were super excited. It was a great thing happening and a great time for us as well.
David:
I was there too. Mor, in fact, we may have met.
Mor:
Yeah, that was great, right? So, yeah, it’s amazing. And we all look forward to seeing the next steps come into life. Yeah. What’s your go to market strategy at Upside in the US. And do you have any plans to go global?
David:
Absolutely. Our mission is global, and certainly the challenges associated with meat production today exist outside the borders of the US. Or any specific country. We are, however, going to be starting in the US. So we announced a partnership with three Michelin star chef Dominique Cren, who has a handful of restaurants in the San Francisco Bay Area and elsewhere. So we’re going to start by partnering with her to bring our products to consumers. That’s going to be initially at a pretty small scale, but as we bring more production modalities online and complete the regulatory review process for additional production methods, we’re excited to scale that up. So it will take some time to be a real mass market product, but it’s all part of the plan. And as we scale, we are also going to be looking into other geographic jurisdictions outside the US. Because, yes, we absolutely want to be available wherever Meet is sold today, whether that’s in the US or any other geographic region.
I’d love to hear what Steakholder is planning more on that front.
Mor:
Well, amazing plans for you guys on our end. Definitely we’re going to start with commercializing our printer. Like I said, it is definitely differentiating value proposition that we offer. So we don’t only grow the cells, we can print the cells and we can work with a lot of industry players. And so for us, the main focus this year is commercialization of the printing capability, tech and securing the collaborations and working with industry players to move production along and to create sophisticated, whole cut, structured products. So that’s going to be exciting for us on our end, definitely in the US market, for sure. So we’re looking forward to this this year.
I think that’s mainly it for what I have planned. Let me check if we have any questions from from our audience. I’m just going to remind the audience that if you have any questions, you feel free to add them to our Q and A Tweet and we’ll do our best to answer. Let me see if we have anything.
Yeah, we have a question. David, maybe you’d like to take this, but what do you think? Is Singapore going to lose traction after the USA comes to the acceptance?
David:
I don’t think so, no. I think every country in the world sells meat and produces meat in some capacity or at least sells it and has a consumer base that’s interested in it. And so ultimately, the end game needs to be every government across the globe having some sort of regulatory framework in place for this and I think there will potentially be a first mover advantage to the countries that sort of get out ahead of it. I think there’s an increasingly growing acknowledgment that this is going to be a crucial pillar of food production in the coming decades. And the countries that are most willing to invest in it now and create a regulatory system that is safe and fair and transparent and has an even playing field with conventionally produced meat products. Those countries are going to be the ones that are best set up to really succeed along with the industry. So I think it’s crucially important and we’ve seen this more and more countries devoting public funds for research and development for cultivated meat and I think we’re going to see more and more of that and that’s going to be a really important trend to watch. But I think there’s in the same way that there’s going to be room for multiple companies to succeed in this space, there also has to be as table stakes many, many countries that are developing these regulatory frameworks.
Mor:
Yeah, I agree with you. I think actually on my end, I think Singapore might lose a bit of traction, but I think a lot of companies would still like to use Singapore as place to test a lot of products, as a beginning, at least. And I think that will, just like you said, create a first mover advantage. So we’ll see what happens with Singapore.
I think that’s all that we have for today. So, David, it was a pleasure speaking with you. Is there anything else you want to share before we wrap the Space up?
David:
No, I mean, thank you, everybody, for listening. If you want to stay up to speed with Upside Foods, you can follow us on Twitter. You can join our newsletter on our website: upsidefoods.com but more just really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you. Really exciting to watch the work Steakholder Foods is doing, so thanks for connecting us.
Mor:
Thank you. And thank you, everyone, for spending this time with us on our end. Don’t forget to join in two weeks. Our next Twitter space will announce a topic and speakers in the next few days, so you can make sure to follow us on Twitter for updates regarding this. And you can find all of our previous episodes on our website, steakholderfoods.com. And so I think this is time to say goodbye. Thank you, everyone, and happy spring holidays.
David:
Have a great day. Thanks, everyone. Bye. Bye.